Talk:Zodiac Killer

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2024

Under "Suspected Victims" section, "Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards", change "Edwards told her friend Shirley that they were going threre." to "Edwards told her friend Shirley that they were going there." 2601:644:9201:8AF0:702F:BC0F:F385:E1D3 (talk) 16:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done Typo fixed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The text here "They were linked by the fact that they were dumped in ravines and killed in conjunction with astrological events, such as the winter solstice, equinox, and Friday the 13th.[124]" Implies that Friday the 13th is an astrological event which it is not. I'd recommend either removing Friday the 13th or put that in a different sentence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.59.33.96 (talk) 18:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Short citations

The short citations should probably use a template like {{sfn}} or {{harvnb}}. Also, the Nuys in "Kelleher, Nuys 2002" should be Van Nuys. I'm sure there's a way to automate adding the "Van," but I'm not clever enough to figure that one out. Snowman304|talk 00:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Separate pages

The article is nearly 200k with 266 footnotes. It's a bit of a slog. It sure seems like it would make sense to break it out into separate pages.Trumpetrep (talk) 04:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I was building up the article until I would separate the suspects section into its own page a la Jack the Ripper suspects. I think the article would be fine in scope from that point on. You can create Zodiac Killer suspects (that's a redirect) if you want right now, I'm busy with other pages. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

And then I'll quickly write a summarized version of the suspects page on this page. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I'll hold off those pages for now. I made the Zodiac Killer suspects page and I'm transferring refs and photos right now. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Great. That seems like the right move. It does seem like a few suspects should not be listed in an encyclopedic article, especially given that most of the citations rely on what is essentially fan fiction. For example, if John A. Cameron's allegation is met with "universally disdain", why are we including it on Wikipedia?Trumpetrep (talk) 02:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree great move.... much easier to navigate and manage this article now. Moxy🍁 02:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you on those two suspects. "Highly-criticized suspects" was a temporary categorizing by me, they were already on the article prior to my work. I've removed them. Atubofsilverware (talk) 02:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems like a 3rd page about the Zodiac letters that also presents the ciphers in their entirety would be warranted. The dizzying amount of communication and the fact that people are still trying to solve the ciphers today strikes me as notable enough for an article.

It would also ease the pressure on this article, which is still far too bloated. I've incorporated the Works Cited books into the reflist as single, named citations. There are still a great deal of bizarre reference names and citations. Will plod on. Trumpetrep (talk) 04:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I support an astrological murders page, but a letters page strikes me as overkill. We're at 9000 words now, which is not wild by any means. Atubofsilverware (talk) 10:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

A good example of this article's shortcomings with the Zodiac letters is the Avery Halloween Card section I just edited. The paragraph introduces it as a "card", but refers to it the rest of the way as a "letter". I edited them all to agree. I'm not sure this is correct, though (was there a letter inside the card?), and that's the problem that I see. The Zodiac letters are so frequent, complicated, and integral to the case that it seems like the material should be presented with more clarity.

I realized that the other issue was that the Zodiac letters were separated from each other by the "Suspected Victims" section. It makes little sense to separate them on either side of such an expansive section in an expansive article. It seems best to keep confirmed Zodiac victims and letters together.Trumpetrep (talk) 19:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The separation was not my doing, I'm fine with moving that section up.

As for your other concerns, I agree that the correspondence needs work. I was working on it before you started helping. But I don't see why more clear writing on the Zodiac's correspondence needs a separate article. Atubofsilverware (talk) 23:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Or another way to phrase it: I think ~8800 words is appropriate for "arguably the most famous unsolved murder case in American history". Atubofsilverware (talk) 23:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The word/byte count is not so much of an issue as utility. Is the entry doing what it is supposed to for Wikipedia? For instance, JFK's assassination is such a sprawling topic that there are articles for his autopsy, Oswald, the Warren Commission, Clay Shaw, etc. The 11/9/69 Zodiac letter is 7 pages, yet it occupied the same amount of space as Sandy Betts did in the article.

Sandy's kooky claims could absolutely be worth including in Wikipedia, but isn't a verified Zodiac letter with a bomb diagram more important? The article seems to be trying to do too many things at once in its current form. That is why it seems worth a bit of restructuring. Thanks for the additional pages you've created! Trumpetrep (talk) 01:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'm convinced. What are your ultimate plans for the page though? Is that the final major change you think should be made? Atubofsilverware (talk) 15:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm most focused on making sure credible sources are cited in an efficient way and that the language makes sense. I want to make sure that assessment's concerns are addressed. The biggest issue remaining seems to be classifying the material. The way you merged the confirmed attacks and letters is a good example of how things should look.Trumpetrep (talk) 18:16, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, I think I have a bead on it. The piecemeal nature of the article is a big issue, as referenced in the assessment. At the head of the body, there is an extremely helpful listing of the 4 confirmed Zodiac attacks. I think that is also the place where the article should introduce the confirmed correspondence and ciphers. For example, when you get to "First Letters from the Zodiac", there is a helpful summary of his correspondence. I would move introductory material about confirmed Zodiac letters & codes to the beginning of the "Murders and Correspondence" section. It sets the topic out clearly, and enables the subsequent material to flow more easily. Does that make sense, or am I missing something? Trumpetrep (talk) 19:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

You mean move that paragraph from "first letters from the zodiac" to the top, and give a quick bulleted list of the confirmed messages like the murders after? That sounds fine. Atubofsilverware (talk) 19:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I took a stab at it. Not sure the list of letters is in the best format, but I think a sortable table is overkill. It's helpful to see at a glance who got the letters, when they were sent, and which ones had ciphers. It should only include confirmed letters, and I'm unclear on what counts as "confirmed".Trumpetrep (talk) 05:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The page is now at 95k bytes and 130 footnotes, essentially a 50% reduction in size. Most of that reduction is a result of consolidating citations and material. The bulk of the article's copy is intact as it was. The remaining issue I see is intertwined.

There are a half dozen books that are cited in the article that don't seem like they should be. It seems like these citations are a way of working them into the bibliography, and a way of not over-relying on Graysmith and Kelleher/Nuys:

• Kobek, Jarett (2022). How to Find Zodiac. We Heard You Like Books. 4–5.
• Korsgaard, Soren Roest. America's Jack The Ripper: The Crimes and Psychology of the Zodiac Killer. Lulu.com, 2017. 264ff.
• Oswell, Douglas Evander. The Unabomber and the Zodiac. Douglas Oswell, 2007. 231.
• Penn, Gareth. Times 17: the amazing story of the Zodiac murders in California and Massachusetts, 1966–1981, Foxglove Press. 1987.
• Rogers, Kate. The Zodiac Killer: Terror in California. Greenhaven Publishing LLC, 2017. 40.
• Adams, Charles F. (2004). Murder by the Bay: Historic Homicide in and about the City of San Francisco. Quill Driver Books.

That gets to a fundamental problem with the topic in general. So little is definitive. For instance, what makes a letter or murder "confirmed"? If there's a consensus, we should explain how it was formed and by whom. From what I can see, there is not. There just seems to be a general sense that 4 attacks/15 letters are genuine and then there is a whole lot of grey area.

This article could benefit from a critical apparatus that helps readers distinguish from theories and confirmed facts as well as self-published fluff and respected sources. I don't think Wikipedia likes annotated bibliographies, but this topic really could use one.

If it were up to me, I would:

1. Move Kobek et al. to a section of Self-Published Sources in Further Reading. Use more reliable sources for their citations.
2. Add the respected websites to Further Reading. At first glance, Voigt's site looks awful, but it seems like it's one of the more respected ones. Help readers know which sites to use.

Trumpetrep (talk) 05:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

You make good points, that all seems good to me. Atubofsilverware (talk) 19:27, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Astrological Murders

Someone did an extreme amount of research to list these victims and find citations. However, the only reason this victim list was in the article is because of a "tentative connection" seen by police at the time between them and the Zodiac murders. The only cited source for that is Graysmith's book. Given the tenuous connection, and the bulk of the article, it seemed best to remove the list of victims. I'm including it here in case someone wants to restore it. There is already so much information in this article that it doesn't seem wise to weigh it down with extensive detail about murders that aren't definitively committed by the Zodiac. It certainly seems that there is enough material here for a separate article:

* Elaine Louise Davis, 17, who disappeared on December 1, 1969, from her home in Walnut Creek, California. On December 19, the body of a young woman – eventually identified as Davis after an exhumation in 2000 – was discovered floating off Light House Point near Santa Cruz.

• Leona LaRell Roberts, 16, whose nude body was found ten days before the winter solstice on the beach at Bolinas Lagoon in Marin County, on December 28, 1969. She had been kidnapped from her boyfriend's home on December 10. Her death was treated as a homicide, although the official cause was listed as "exposure" by the medical examiner.
• Cosette Ann Ellison, 15, whose nude body was found in a ravine seventeen days before the vernal equinox. The cause of her death was undetermined. She had been abducted on March 3, 1970, from her residence in Moraga, California, as she got off the school bus at 3:20 p.m.
• Patricia Ann King, 20, who was found strangled and discarded in a rural gully at Diablo Valley College. She was nude from the waist down but had not been raped.
• Judith Ann Hakari, 23, who was last seen leaving work at Sutter Medical Center in Sacramento at 11:30 p.m. on March 7, 1970, thirteen days before the equinox. She was discovered, nude and bludgeoned, in an overgrown ravine off Ponderosa Way, near Weimar on April 26.
• Marie Antoinette Anstey, 23, who was kidnapped in Vallejo after being stunned by a blow to the head, and then drowned. Her body was recovered in rural Lake County on March 21, and an autopsy revealed traces of mescaline in her bloodstream.
• Eva Lucienne Blau, 17, who was found clubbed to death and dumped in a roadside gully near Santa Rosa during the equinox on March 20, 1970. The medical examiner discovered drugs in her circulatory system. She was last seen on March 12, leaving Jack London Hall after telling friends that she was heading home.
• Carol Beth Hilburn, 22, who was found beaten to death in a ravine on November 13, 1970. She was last seen at Lloyd Hickey’s Forty Grand Club in Sacramento on November 14 at approximately 5:00 a.m. Hilburn had been stripped of her clothing except for her underwear, which was found around her knees. She had been beaten about the face, and had a deep cut to her throat.
• Denise Kathleen Anderson, 22, who disappeared on April 13, 1971, having been last seen by one of her roommates at 5:30 a.m. at their residence in Sacramento. She has not been seen since.
• Susan Marie Lynch, 22, who was discovered murdered on July 31, 1971, having been buried alive near East Levee Road in Sacramento, one-half mile north of Del Paso Road and 0.6 miles southwest of the Hilburn dump site.
• Linda Diane Uhlig, 19, who was found in a ditch alongside a rural road beaten to death at Half Moon Bay on March 28, 1972, six days after the vernal equinox. Her skull had been smashed and it appeared that her attacker had tried to decapitate her.
• Lynn Derrick, 24, who was discovered in Noe Valley, San Francisco, on July 26, 1972, at 4:15 a.m. She had been strangled and a sock had been forced into her mouth, but no sexual molestation had taken place. Derrick had been abducted from her home approximately two hours earlier, at around 2:00 a.m., when a female neighbour reported hearing a disturbance, a dragging sound, and a car speeding away.

Wrong information about 37.

There are no communications where the killer claimed to have killed 37 people. He simply stated the number 37 in one 1974 letter.

This does not mean he killed 37 people. It could be a clue about anything.

Please delete the wrong information from this sentence:

“The last confirmed Zodiac letter was in 1974, in which he claimed to have killed 37 victims.”

No such claim was ever made by the killer.

The sentence should be changed to:

“The last confirmed Zodiac letter was in 1974.”

Thank you. 2A00:23C6:410F:A001:AC34:FC91:7519:E985 (talk) 04:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Not done. "Me = 37, SFPD = 0." is clear as day considering the context of the other letters where he does the scoreboard thing. Reliable sources say this means 37 victims, and we go off of what reliable sources say. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Two Suspect Photo Composite Sketches

Should be noted in the original photo composite sketch at the top of the page that there were two different profiles made of the suspects involved in the case, and that the first sighting of a person of interest that was seen in the Lake Berryessa attack was later placed below in the page, as an alternative suspect. This evidentiary fact would substantiate the suspicions that there were two original suspects found to be at the scene of the first canonical crime. One in the costume, and one seen driving around and in the parking lot waiting, smoking cigarettes.

It is obvious that the moniker illusion of a single suspect behind a string of murders is used in the main page's link, whereas the actual evidence shows that there was another person of interest that appeared in the historical records of the investigations, BEFORE the composite was made by the Kathleen John's suspect.

The request for an edit would be to arrange a side-by-side line-up of the two suspects and allow for the rest of the page to host discussions about the involvement of each.

Also to note that Oranchek's research is widely reported but not accepted here as a breakthrough.

Was it decided that it was not a valid break of the Z340? 2600:1011:B332:3C3D:31F7:5382:C2A3:4659 (talk) 05:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)